tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5064339973020364259.post4251259994509558952..comments2012-11-06T09:46:15.661-08:00Comments on Fighting Company Devjon: Recent Vassal Games and MSU Realization.Devjonhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07126096792379344134noreply@blogger.comBlogger5125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5064339973020364259.post-54497669977965502722011-10-15T00:16:57.409-07:002011-10-15T00:16:57.409-07:003)I had heard how awesome they are, but I hadn'...3)I had heard how awesome they are, but I hadn't realized most of the why. I had even read that article, but a few things still eluded me (most of which I have included in the post above). My impression was that the Distraction units would land out in the open, away from anything important, and begin attacking the enemy to either draw their attention or do a bunch of damage; then the Crusader Squads would land all across the board, claiming objectives, hiding behind their Drop Pods, and slowing down the enemy once he got to them. What the Distraction units end up doing for me is dropping amidst the enemy and taking out prime targets (Land Raiders and Predators, and other big stuff are my favorites), then drawing fire (though usually not enough could be brought to kill them), before continuing to deal damage (so both of the options that I had thought); the Crusader Squads claimed far off objectives and any extras came down near the enemy so that they can box them in and use their Plasma Guns (and Multi-Meltas) and who knows, they might even be able to claim one of the enemy objectives (as what happened in both the first and the third game). I was also under the impression that blocking with the Drop Pods was when you placed them between two pieces of terrain to slow the enemy down, not when you bring down several Drop Pods all in a line and preventing access to entire sections of the board until they're destroyed. You should really get some Battle Reports of you using the DDP List so that you can further explain not only how it's meant to work, but also how it actually performs on the table-top (Black Templars 102 guide would be a good place for that kind of Battle Report).<br /><br />I don't think I should have a terrible time with Dark Eldar, Algesan seems to be able to take care of them with his list, and all of my units has a weapon which can (fairly) reliably de-mech them the turn I come down, though moving Flat Out somewhat negates this and I'm not exactly mobile to go catch them should they escape me, nor do I have the range to reach out and touch them. But once I remove their transport advantage, then they are very similar to my guys, but worse...and don't have BS2 Drop Pod Storm Bolters to Immobilize Predators.<br /><br />The Grey Knight issue is a different problem entirely as it sounds. And I don't really have an answer to it. As it stands I'll lose a third of my units before they can do anything, and then another third will be placed far away, and just one third isn't much to work with (maybe if it's the perfect third, just maybe). All I can think of to counter that is to deploy outside of my Drop Pods and run over to him, that way I'd lose a third of my Drop Pods, but not the units inside. Still, that isn't a great option.<br /><br />Two main reasons that I haven't played a Vassal Game with anyone yet is 1) I would want to find a Vassal Etiquette article or something or else I'd be in a constant state of paranoia that I'd be making mistakes (no I can't think of any in particular, but I'd still be terrified that I was making them, I'm just insecure like that) and 2) I heard that it was recommended to use Skype or some similar program to talk rather than using the chat feature. The first one I could probably get over, and I really haven't made any searches, but the second I agree with. It would be nice for me to just say what I'm doing while I'm doing it, rather than typing it in and doing it. Plus, there's no chance my opponent will use chat-speak and be hard to understand (well, it's possible, but I can trust that it won't happen).<br /><br />By the way, a great article for how to use Vassal can be found here:<br /><br />http://bloodofkittens.com/blog/2011/01/21/40k-abuse-getting-started-with-vassal-a-how-to/<br /><br />You probably don't need Vassal as much as I do, but you can take advantage of it if you want some pictures to explain anything in your Blog or 101 Guide (I just need to take some screen-shots, and perhaps I can get a Battle-Report up).Devjonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07126096792379344134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5064339973020364259.post-56384874209323257742011-10-15T00:13:46.006-07:002011-10-15T00:13:46.006-07:00Okay, so I think there's a character limit for...Okay, so I think there's a character limit for the comments, because Blogger simply wouldn't post mine, so I'm going to try two different comments.<br /><br />Using a list form is so handy. Easy to write in, easy to read, so awesomesauce. <br /><br />1) I've played Chess with myself, and I tend to prefer the black pieces more than the white pieces. Guess which side tends to win more? But I do think that I wasn't quite playing the lists to the best of their ability, mostly because the games are for me to better learn how my list performs and how to use it, so I concentrate on that rather on using the other lists. Now this doesn't have a huge impact (except against the Templarbubble list, which probably needs a rematch), but it does mean that I can't use the outcomes as a perfect representation of what will happen against an actual opponent (though I can't think of anything I was doing wrong with the first two lists, so I may not be too far off).<br /><br />And I don't think that using my own lists will make much difference, maybe in that I made them and thus I am more familiar with them. But my tournament list is still my favorite (and a little part of me wants to believe that it's also the best I can bring forward), and I will still want it to win.<br /><br />2)I've read several places that the higher available Kill Points in MSU armies doesn't equate to a hindrance in Kill Point games, and that it's because of having so many different units which can do damage, but I had never seen it explained. I had been under the impression that even though MSU had more units, larger units would do more damage and, combined with the lower durability that MSU generally has, would have an easier time claiming kill points (basically, MSU doesn't roll over and die to a lower Kill-Point army in 1/3 of the games, but is still at a disadvantage). But I've found that unless there is a huge difference in damage output (such as Terminators to Marines) there isn't a notable difference in how effective a unit is at killing other units. With Vehicles and a large number of Multi-Meltas this is compounded by there being little difference between Land Raiders and Rhinos when it comes to killing them. For my list in particular, the Crusader Squads could (half the time) kill a Rhino or a Land Speeder, the Dreadnoughts could be counted on to kill or badly damage any unit they targeted (Multi-Melta on Vehicles, Heavy Flamer plus charge on Infantry), and very little could stand against two Assault Cannons and three Storm Bolters (especially after the assault). Who cares that there are only 5 bodies? Twice as many bodies in the squad won't make it twice as likely to kill something. <br /><br />What people need to realize is not simply that MSU has so many sufficient units, it's that larger squads aren't sufficiently more deadly to be worth their points. I said that my Crusader Squads were each only about 7% of my offensive output, and that's because I didn't count Bolters. Bolters (and Storm Bolters or any other weapon that isn't high Strength or doesn't ignore armor) are not effective weapons. Sure, they'll do some damage, but it will only be about as many wounds as the Special/Heavy Weapons do and it will only be against Infantry. Sure, they ignore the armor of things like Ork Boyz, but then there are so many Boyz that unless you have a LOT of Bolters you just don't make a real impact.Devjonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07126096792379344134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5064339973020364259.post-82424481280902202502011-10-14T21:33:04.856-07:002011-10-14T21:33:04.856-07:00You're telling me. I guess I am going to have...You're telling me. I guess I am going to have to start doing that, cause its getting rather irritating. The first time was because there is an invisible character limit for comments on my blog, but they don't give you a counter to track how close you're getting. So it got cut in half. :(<br /><br />Anyway, hopefully I remember everything I was saying before. What I do remember is going to be a little shorter than before as well. Its going to be in list form, cause that is just easier for me. <br /><br />1) I won't accuse you of not playing hard with both lists, because I assume you are. However, this isn't chess where both sides are equal. As much as you would it to be even, there will be sub-conscious bias in play (as you mention). Its unavoidable and may affect in-game play, though it might not have been the case this time around.<br /><br />Because of this, I would recommend using some of your own lists to play against as well. That way you're equally invested in the success of both lists and you'll minimize the bias you get. While I think its still important to play other player's lists (hell, I'm going to have to learn how to use Vassal so I can try), if you want to eliminate that element, that is the way to do it. Otherwise, actually playing a person helps too. Might have to get my ass in gear and learn how to use the program so I can get some games in with ya. ;)<br /><br />2) I've tried very hard to explain, unsuccessfully, that it doesn't matter how many Kill Points you have if your opponent can't kill you. Not only is it incredibly difficult to kill MEQ as it is, you take several turns from your opponent. Then you have to take the attrition factor into play. You spoke a little bit about this. Because I have so many units that can deal a good deal of damage, the enemy will be taking losses assuming average rolls. That cuts down on their ability to kill you even further. And nothing in our army is a big enough a threat to kill by itself, but they are all dangerous if left alone. But if they do die, who cares? I have several other exact same units. The fact of the matter is that I have more "dangerous" units than my opponent does, through shear numbers. The sum is greater than the whole.<br /><br />People need to think of MSU like ants. While other insects might be infinitely stronger and larger, there is no way they'll be able to kill enough of them before being dragged down. Each ant is dangerous by itself, but not so much so that it attracts special attention.<br /><br />3) I think you're beginning to see why I've noted for about 2 years that our drop pods are amazing. I even wrote a huge article on how to use the DDP where I pretty much spelled out these benefits, but still there players who naysay. ;) The ability to manipulate the board, coupled with the ability to abuse MSU, is huge. Its difficult to learn the army, but once you do, you'll be incredibly hard to beat. Unless you're playing one of two armies. <br /><br />Dark Eldar have the advantage because they can do MSU and have fast skimmers, but not unbeatable. Then there is Grey Knights with Warp Quake. If you see that psychic power on the board, its pretty much game over for the manipulation strategy. A clever GK opponent can project nearly a full board of "Mishap Zones" by turn two. That would be one of the few times you'd want to go first. <br /><br />I think I forgot some of the stuff I wrote before, but oh well. I'll re-comment if I remember them. ;)Marshal Laerothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14600470017757906441noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5064339973020364259.post-35661180804256022672011-10-14T18:38:54.122-07:002011-10-14T18:38:54.122-07:00Isn't this the second time you've recently...Isn't this the second time you've recently lost most/all of a comment? From now on, make a point before posting comments to copy the whole thing, just in case. ;)Devjonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07126096792379344134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5064339973020364259.post-41952084211234949332011-10-14T13:35:24.177-07:002011-10-14T13:35:24.177-07:00I hate my life. Just lost a huge ass comment to a...I hate my life. Just lost a huge ass comment to a blogger error. :'(<br /><br />I'll come back tonight and try to repost it again. *sigh*Marshal Laerothhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14600470017757906441noreply@blogger.com