Nov 8, 2011

Battle Report 1. Drop Pods vs. Gunline

And here…we…go!

I’m afraid that I neglected to take any pictures before most of the Deployment was over (okay, half way through Turn 2), but that was partially because I forgot to start taking them and partially because I decided that I should skip boring parts (it doesn’t matter how they moved and what path they took as much as where they ended up, it also isn’t necessary to take a picture at every half-way point when only two units do anything).

The game was against Marshal Learoth’s NOVA Gunline list. I have to admit, I was somewhat concerned that my Drop Pods would quickly be eliminated by the sheer amount of firepower in his list, and we’ll see how accurate that fear was.

Drop Pod got first choice; since I had more Scoring units than the Gunline, I felt that it would be best to go for Objectives rather than my otherwise preferred Kill Points (and I wanted to change things up a little). The Gunline didn’t want Dawn of War, because it needed to spread out, and it didn’t want Pitched Battle, because then it would either be taken apart piecemeal or it would be too clumped together to stop me, so it chose Spearhead. By random chance, the Gunline went first.

NOVA Terrain set-up (though less difficult terrain; two hills that just block LoS unless you’re on top of them, two ruins that are difficult terrain, two small pieces of Impassible terrain, and a road which didn’t come into play) with 4 Objectives in the quarters and 1 in the middle, all in Terrain pieces; Gunline set up to send a Predator and a Crusader Squad for the center objective, one Crusader Squad in reserve to take his other Objective, and two Crusader Squads plus two Predators on a hill holding his home Objective. The two Terminator squads and the Typhoons spread out between the forward units and the home units to prevent Drop Pods from coming down and getting rear-shots (and to maximize the room available to maneuver in once the Drop Pods do come down). The main strategy was to grab three objectives and prevent the Drop Pod list from boxing them in too badly. After Deployment, stuff generally moved forward but kept the same positions in relation to each other (you’ll see in the picture). The Drop Pods were fired from the ships.

Next turn saw the reserved Crusader Squad come on, so they pushed up towards their destination. Stuff moved forward again, and now the Gunline holds two Objectives (almost three), while the Drop Pods have yet to come down. And then they do. In one of the best ratios they could hope for (somehow, they almost always seem to get those ratios). Two Dreadnoughts, a Command Squad (Castellan led), all three Typhoons and a single Crusader Squad (without Emperor’s Champion); the Crusader Squad claims the objective that the reserved enemy Crusader Squad was going for, the Command Squad comes down inches from a home Predator with their Drop Pod protecting them from the Terminators, one Dreadnought comes down near the center objective and sets up for a side shot on the near-by Predator, the other Dreadnought comes down just like the Command Squad but for the other home Predator and still protected from Terminators by its Drop Pod, and the Typhoons come down between the main force of the Gunline and the other claimed objective. This may be confusing, but it looks like the below:

I hope that isn’t too small to see, but the units with red on them are the Gunline guys. The two objectives claimed by the Gunline are on hills, the two nearby corner ones are in ruins, and the last one is on a road, the other terrain is just impassible, but never came up as Blocking LoS or not. The yellow Rhino is just a wreck, not actually a unit.

And now the Shooting phase begins. The Command Squad targeted the Predator, which got Immobilized and Stunned; the green Dreadnought fired at the Predator, and whiffed; the other Dreadnought fired at the Predator near-by and blew off a Lascannon; the Crusader Squad fire its Plasma Gun at the Razorback but did nothing, and the Typhoons fire a few shots and Stunned another Typhoon as well as destroying the Weapon on the stunned Typhoon and that Razorback in the middle of the board. Assault Phase was uneventful.

Turn 3 and by most theory (the major arguments against Deep-Striking armies) the Gunline should have had a big advantage, lots of firepower against a very small portion of the enemy army. Well they shift around some (at this point I realized that I would need to go for 4 Objectives just in case I couldn’t hold one of them), and their firing destroyed the Command Squad’s Drop Pod, killing two of the Command Squad, wrecked the green Dreadnought’s Drop Pod, Shook a Typhoon, Shook both Dreadnoughts (Extra Armor is a steal at 5 points), Destroyed the Storm Bolter on the Crusader Squad’s Drop Pod, and did very little else. At this point I realized that the Terminators were going to be very dangerous unit, since they packed a lot of firepower plus could kill anything I had in Close Combat plus would be hard to take down unless I dedicated several units to that task, but since they had killed the two things they shot at, they were unable to assault.

The other Command Squad came down, along with 4 Crusader Squads (including the Emperor’s Champion), but the Dreadnought remained in reserve along with one more Crusader Squad. The Command Squad went to help the Dreadnought with the Center Predator, the Crusader Squads moved to claim/contest/support Objectives (the bottom right, the top right, the center, and the top left) with the Emperor’s Champion in the center Crusader Squad. A Typhoon went to support the two Crusader Squads in the upper right and the Squad going for the upper left took a risky move and dropped behind everybody in the corner.

So what you see is the Strategy for the Drop Pod list beginning to take shape. The Squad in the lower right isn’t going to be moving until their Drop Pod is destroyed (which reduces how many shots the Gunline can spend on the near-by dangerous stuff, known as the Distraction units); the upper-right objective is definitely going to be mine as I’ve got about twice the amount of power there, some of which can easily be re-deployed once it’s finished and the rest isn’t needed beyond taking that objective; everything in the upper-left corner is getting congested and hard to maneuver in (the Terminators can still move around but their paths are limited both by my guys and their own).

Various things shoot and kill/damage stuff, I believe another Razorback loses its turret, the Gunline’s bottom Typhoon gets Stunned, the Crusader Squad and Razorback in the upper-right is taken out entirely, the center Predator is exploded by the Command Squad, and then we get to assault. One of the home Predators gets wrecked by the Dreadnought, the other just gets Stunned again by the Command Squad, the Razorback on the center objective gets wrecked by the Dreadnought, and then we are done.

At this point, in the aftermath, it’s obvious that the game is over and all we need to decide is if the final call is 2-1 or 3-0. The Gunline has nothing left to make a chance at Victory except the two Terminator units, which are otherwise indisposed in trying to do just that. Of course, the Typhoons and Razorback turrets could cause some damage, but only one Typhoon is in any shape and only one Razorback has its turret left. The center objective is about to be taken, the upper-left is still heavily fought over, but I solidly control the two on the right and there is nothing that the Gunline can do about it except annoy them. I’ve got the units to make sure he doesn’t hold two objectives, and I even have enough to make sure he doesn’t hold any. Even so, it isn’t worth quitting at this point because there are tactical things to do, even if there are no strategic changes that are going to take place.

The light-blue Terminators shoot into the Castellan-led Command Squad and kill all but one guy, the green Terminators begin moving around the wrecked Drop Pod to get at the Dreadnought (now looking at the map, I think they could have assaulted it between the Predator and the Drop Pod, but it didn’t look like it at the time), the home-Crusader Squad disembarks to begin a shootout with the corner Crusader Squad, the Marshal’s Drop Pod gets rammed (no effect) and the Razorback full of Crusader Squad heads for the un-claimed Objective, and that’s about it. The light-blue Terminators charge the single Meltagun Initiate from the Command Squad, he tries to glance the Predator and does nothing; 15 Powerfist attacks, 3 hits, 1 wound, his dies. Yes, I rolled so badly that the full Terminator Squad almost failed to kill a single guy. Think of if there had been two.

For the Drop Pods they get their last Crusader Squad and Dreadnought. The Crusader Squad claims that lonely corner Objective, the Dreadnought comes down and blocks the Razorback that still has its passengers. The Dreadnought that killed the Predator moves to tackle the light-blue Terminators (ideally with support from the other Dreadnought and that near-by Crusader Squad), Typhoons move and work on killing the enemy Typhoons, the Emperor’s Champion led Crusader Squad charges into the enemy Emperor’s Champion led Crusader Squad and, because of careful placement of the Emperor’s Champion, is able to annihilate the Crusader Squad itself in a couple of turns and then get support from the Dreadnought to kill the other Emperor’s Champion (my own Emperor’s Champion and a single Initiate remaining), the Command Squad helps with the Typhoons, and the Gunline Crusader Squad holding the upper-left objective gets totaled (shooting plus charge from Dreadnought).

The turret-less Razorback zooms forward to contest the lower-left objective and blows smoke, the other nearby Razorback gets Stunned, with the center Objective held the Dreadnought pulls back to keep out of range of the green Terminators who have turned around and started heading their way, the top Dreadnought gets wrecked by Krak Missiles and the light-blue Terminators are trying to take out that Crusader Squad while the Crusader Squad from the Stunned Razorback hops out to try and claim the objective. The green Terminators assault the Emperor’s Champion, who somehow survives all of their attacks after splitting away from his Crusader Squad so that the single Initiate doesn’t get hit by Powerfists, because that would be bad (the Champion even kills one of the Terminators). We come to Turn 5 ready for the Drop Pod list to go, and there isn’t a whole lot left.

The Command Squad shoots at and then assaults that Crusader Squad, the upper-right Crusader Squad moves to claim the objective, the Dreadnought to the left destroys the weapon of the Razorback, the bottom Razorback (with smoke on it) gets Immobilized, the two remaining Typhoons get wrecked, the Emperor’s Champion dies, the Initiate near him moves away from the Terminators (and claims that objective), and the Dreadnought assaults the Terminators. Bottom of Turn 5 and the Drop Pods have claimed all 5 objectives but the Terminators are contesting one of them.

Okay, the game could end here but it doesn’t. The two remaining Razorbacks get taken out, two of the green Terminators get killed, the Dreadnought they are in combat with gets wrecked, the upper-left Crusader Squad gets slain by Terminators, the Command Squad remains locked in combat with the Crusader Squad, and that Immobilized Predator finally bites the dust. End of Turn 6, 4-0 (the Dreadnought’s sacrifice plus some shooting prevents the Terminators from contesting that objective) and the Gunline surrenders.

This is what I mean when I say that I prefer Kill Point games, just to add them up the Gunline lost 3 Crusader Squad, 4 Razorbacks, 3 Predators, 3 Typhoons, and the Emperor’s Champion. The Drop Pods lost 2 Dreadnoughts, 5 Drop Pods, 1 Crusader Squad, 1 Command Squad, 1 Castellan, and the Emperor’s Champion. The Drop Pod list scored 3 more Kill Points than the Gunline did, and annihilated them in Objectives. If you wanted to check Table Quarters then, well, I’ve got three of them, maybe four. In other words, this was not a close victory, this was a massacre.

Why was it such a clear victory? Neither army got significantly luckier than the other. The terrain hardly made a difference (okay, it reduced the number of targets for the Typhoons on occasion and it limited the movement of the green Terminators slightly), the craters left by exploded vehicles had more of an impact. Technically, the Drop Pod list’s Typhoons were able to fire first, but they were also forced to come down where they had few targets which limited them, so that shouldn’t make a massive impact. Was it the lack of Melta in the Gunline? Of course, that may have helped on occasion, but given the circumstances so would Power Weapons or Powerfists and at several points they needed the Plasma Gun more than the Meltagun because they were targeting Infantry. Reserving a single unit had almost no negative impact; it was how the unit was later handled that caused it to fail. And a fair portion of the Drop Pod list didn’t even have a big role in the game, one Crusader Squad did nothing by claim a single objective (and that wouldn’t have made a difference in the outcome), another claimed an objective (again, not tie-breaking) and fired a couple of shots. A Command Squad (my second most expensive unit) was only able to do some damage to a Predator and slow down a Terminator unit for a turn but definitely not a whole lot.

It’s because of the sheer number of Drop Pods which prevented the Gunline from moving, from selecting the best targets, and from acting as a whole that made the difference. The Drop Pod list’s units are quite capable of working on their own (every unit has exceptional Duality) and they don’t need to work in conjunction aside from all aiming for the same goal, the Typhoons provide support where needed and that’s about all the direct synergy there is (okay, I need to use multiple Drop Pods to do things, but still).

So, as the Drop Pod list, what would I have done differently? The upper Dreadnought wouldn’t have moved forward, he would have tried to stay out of sight until the Terminators were closer (or had assaulted and killed the Crusader Squad) so that he could move out, shoot them, and then get the charge off so that he could do as much damage as possible. I may have been able to not send a second Crusader Squad over to help claim that upper-left objective, but there wasn’t really a better place to send it.

As the Gunline, what should I have done differently? Gone out earlier to take the lower-left objective; I also probably should have used the green Terminators a little differently, they spent several turns moving and shooting a little bit when they should have been targeting and eliminating major threats. I probably also should have put more fire into those Typhoons, they lasted the whole game and did a fair amount of damage, but I got distracted by the more pressing, if less ideal, targets closer to me (the Distraction Units). Aside from that, I probably should have brought the reserved Crusader Squad on closer to the rest of my force so that it didn’t get isolated.

That’s pretty much all I can take out of that game, though any questions or comments would be greatly appreciated, so long as you realize that I did leave out a few details (I remember the two Crusader Squads in the upper-right taking pot shots at something in the center, but I can’t remember what it was or what they did). I know it’s really, really wordy, and that’s something I need to improve, maybe next time.

Unfortunately, except for maybe a few games against various Tyranid lists and one (or more if I feel it necessary) against my Best of list I think I’m going to leave my Drop Pod army alone for a while. I already know the outcome because it’s been the same for the past 4-5 games I’ve played with it. Instead I’m going to try and get games in with some of my other lists, and especially some of my Tyranid lists, maybe set up some sort of tournament to try and find the best list I’ve made, maybe. Aside from that, unless I get any questions I’ve got some thought on personalizing the DDP list which I’ll try to get to by the end of the week.


  1. Hmmm, I'd check with Marshal Laeroth, but I don't see too much why the Gunline wouldn't like a Pitched Battle deployment. What you just did here was something similar to what I did in a battle vs 1K Sons when they tried to castle up "for protection". With a pure Drop Pod list.

    Maybe spread out some more with them and if need be pair up the Lazbacks & Predators in a Rhino Rush formation with the last one in line spinning 180 to cover the arse of the rest of them, which gives any attackers a solid wall of AV11 (or face 4+ cover save for obscured target). You have to use that 48" range to cover each other rather than staying shoulder to shoulder. IMO, ignore objectives for the first two turns (especially if going first) since it is better to spread out while maintaining fire lanes to savage the first half of the army that drops in. If the DDP drops defensively to cover objectives, then maneuver against that, if they drop to try to block and contain, blow the crap out of them,use the Terminators to multiassault Pods (shoot a squad) and then move out.

    Are you using Drop Pods as BLOS units? Or just giving 4+ cover with them? It is possible to get BLOS for a small unit, but not likely since if one square MM of a model can be seen, it can be shot up.

    If you want the direct flaws of the DDP, especially the New DDP:
    1) Insufficient CC capability, Dreadnoughts do great things, but killing MEQ efficiently in CC isn't one of them.
    2) Any Skimmer or horde infantry based list would laugh at Pod Blocking.
    3) DE lists would really laugh at you since by the time the first Pod dropped, everything would have moved flat out the previous turn, cutting your dakka in half. They also would be swarming you under piecemeal since they don't care about blocking Pods or Terrain.
    4) If the opposing list has any heavy hitting CC, then they kill Pods in passing as they beat your squads down. I do this myself vs. lists that have Pods with my Terminator squads.

    NOTE: I haven't lost yet with the DS list vs. DE. Only three games, but they included one tabling and one near tabling (I couldn't quite get at the last couple of jetbikes hiding in the corner). The last was one of those apocalyptic things where I ended up with the last troops standing on an objective, but I'd smashed all his skimmers and his troops couldn't shove past my screening squads on foot.

    5) If you get into a tight spot from bad luck or a simple error, the DDP doesn't have the capability to recover and win since it lacks ranged firepower AND the ability to at least throw a credible CC threat into an opponent on the last objective.

    Okay, now that I've beat up the DDP some, you can go back to Implausible Nature and reread all of the advantages of the DDP style of play, which I agree with. It controls the tempo of the game, retaining the initiative and lets one control the direction of the game.

    Consider the DS list a hybrid list. Normally I deploy 50% of my DMS & 70% of my DRPG right on the board and unlike the majority of the DDP, I can pound away at virtually any target I want as long as I stay towards the middle.

    BUT>>> I can also reserve everything and have it drop in from later. There is sufficient duality in the list that with the long range, I can still hammer away at my opponent while staying concentrated. I can (and have in a few situtations) done the full blow DDP drop without all the extra pods.

    Truth, I'm taking more of a chance by having Terminators teleport without beacons. For me, it is an acceptable risk to free up extra points for use when I'm deploying normally.

  2. Part of the reason I deployed the Gunline that way was because of previous experience against the Drop Pod list. When several vehicles group together for protection, the Pods and Dreadnoughts come down and hem them in while I fire into them and cause damage which tends to either wreck, immobilize, or at least stun more vehicles and all of the mobility is gone simply by there being no place to move. AV 11 walls aren't really a bother when the worst anti-tank weapon I have is a Plasma Gun in Rapid Fire range.

    To me it seemed that I wouldn't be able to spread out enough while still keeping everything in a group with Pitched Battle, with Spearhead I felt that I could (and I was mostly right).

    I don't mean to sound confrontational (I'm probably paranoid but I kept getting the feeling that you could take this the wrong way as I was writing the below), but I want to address your points about the flaws with the DDP lists.

    I'm still not convinced that not having any great Close Combat units is a flaw, the Dreadnoughts handle most things (yes, even tackling Marine units) and generally I gain more from just tying up a unit rather than needing to kill it (such as happened with the last of the Gunline's Crusader Squads).

    Against Skimmer-based lists I can't rely on Pod-Blocking, instead I simply take advantage of every unit being capable of taking them down and dropping as needed. I know that it's a weakness, and I will have to reevaluate how I deal with it but I'm not overly concerned (now the Grey Knights' Warp Quake, that I'm concerned about).

    Everything having moved Flat Out would be annoying, but not exactly crippling. Look at my first volley of shooting here; I affected four vehicles, affecting only two wouldn't make a huge difference as most of my shooting comes after my initial drop along with a fair amount of damage from my Dreadnoughts assaulting Vehicles.

    I've faced lists with heavy hitting Close Combat units. With my earlier list (not tested with the new Command Squads, but shouldn't be too different) I would laugh at those kinds of lists. Why? Because I would kill their transport and then, after I had already secured a victory, I would crush their powerful units in Close Combat with my Dreadnoughts. The only reason that the Terminators were different this time was because they packed serious fire-power and lots of Powerfists, which meant that my normal strategy could be put into effect and they had to be left alive. It made little difference, because they didn't get a chance to assault very much (though admittedly, when they did, they killed what they hit); I treated them the same way I treated most giant Close Combat Threats that can kill my Dreadnoughts, I prevented them from getting to me and generally ignored them until I could afford to.

    The DDP list does have the capability to recover and easily pull out a win if something goes awry. I've got so many extra units that if I lose a couple of Crusader Squads or a Dreadnought or a Command Squad or a Typhoon, or even all of the above, I still have what I need to win the game. Look at the game I just played, assume that both of the bottom Crusader Squads had died, the second Command Squad had died, and the third Dreadnought had died; I still could have won holding two objectives to one. It would have been close, but I would not have been unrealistic (I still kill the Crusader Squad holding the Home Objective, the other moves to take one of the left ones and I hold the center and the right). And that's a third of my list gone, a select third but still a third.

    Just a note, I haven't really gone back and read Marshal Learoth's article about how to use the DDP list in some months.

  3. Admittedly, the gunline list will have difficulties downing the DDP completely via shooting. But I have no difficulty against traditional Drop Pod/Deep Strike lists like Loganwing and Nipplewing, respectively.

    There are things about your deployment that I would have changed, but its difficult to explain it without being able to show you. I really need to learn how to use Vassal. *downloads* There are two options for you as the gunline user.

    1) Castle completely. This protects your units from being charged, but with careful positioning, you'll still be able to fire with near impunity at incoming units. For example, if you hide your Crusader squads behind the Predators/Razorbacks with only a small crack to see through, then the DDP player has to kill the vehicle before he's able to charge. This puts your FULL force of firepower on whatever drops your way. You only need to sit there shooting for a few turns, then its move forward to claim the one or two objectives.

    This tactic has flaws though. First, if you DON'T kill what drops in front of you (possible), multi-charges are going to rape you. You also run the risk of not being able to capture enough objectives.

    2) Spread COMPLETELY out. Everything. Each Troop squad goes to a different place, supported by a separate unit. Those that can't keep the pace and keep up their shooting (i.e. Predators) stick closer to the home objectives. This forces the DDP player to break into many different pieces to try and deny objectives. If they focus too much, then there isn't enough to deal with the other objectives.

    Against as shooty list as the gunline list is, this is a legitimate concern for the DDP list as even the smallest little break-off pieces pack a punch in the shooting phase. The Gunline gives up one objective (which can be possible contested later), but you're consolidating your forces on four objectives.

    I understand that you can prevent advancing with the DDP (hell, I say it all the time), but between deployment and the one turn of full movement, you should be able to pull off getting to four. The only reason this works is because you have the long range guns to back it up. Once you're at a spot, you don't need to move much more until end game. A CC list would simply just get de-meched and would be useless to the rest of the battle from so far away.

    Is this a guaranteed strategy? No. In the end, I think the outcome would probably have been the same in an objective game. But I think it would have improved the Gunline list's chances. But that is only because I understand both lists intimately.

    There were some mistakes in the battle as well, but everyone makes them, so they aren't really worth harping on because they were mainly on the Gunline side of things (which you don't play, so doesn't matter). :D

    In the meantime, we need to set something up where we can get some games going. We seem to have a very close online schedule.

  4. Oh, and I forgot to mention in the deployment option number 2, the Typhoons don't deploy on the board. They reserve in/deep strike depending on how confident you are in their ability to survive to contest. I'd probably come on from the board edge to be honest with you. That way you get a flat out save and can get out of range of the MM's by skirting the short board edges.

  5. Hmmm, hadn't thought about #1, but then its been so long since I did that.

    #2 is what I was thinking about. When planning to take your enemy, you have to figure to sacrifice some units and try to make sure they get their licks in before they go under. Just guess I'm split up into four different groups with 48" range. After your Pods hit the ground, I can still provide fire support across the board.

    I think what ML is trying to say is to remember Rock, Scissors, Paper. The Gunline has two things against DDP: Superior mobility and Superior shooting. It cannot afford to be hemmed in with BLOS stuff around it.

  6. The problem with option #1 is that I know from experience that it wouldn't work very well (I gave some detail why in my last comment). Unless I'm mistaken I should have enough pods and Dreadnoughts to come down and entirely encircle the Gunline list if it castled up, which would mean that unless the Gunline exploded enough they would be unable to claim more than 1 or 2 objectives. Plus, the Infantry are usually a secondary target for me, especially in a list like this, I would just charge the vehicles and cause greater damage.

    {Just thinking to myself here: That's why you would use Terminators as Bubble-wrap, in which case they could easily provide lanes through which to escape out of. So I would have to target the vehicles behind the Terminators with any Crusader Squads I had over there in an attempt to Wreck or Immobilize them, denying them their escape lanes. Cover saves for the vehicles and several Crusader Squads sent to claim Objectives would mean that I would have to point Multi-Meltas that way as well, reducing my overall effectiveness but that would mean that the Gunline isn't going to take a huge advantage from deploying this way.}

    Okay, so if the Terminators were used as Bubble-wrap then I could understand this strategy being successful. But I didn't see any problems with the strategy I used (still don't except for being a little too defensive), and look what happened.

    #2 I don't see as being amazing either. Assuming 4 different groups that are all about equal (3 Predators and 2 units of Terminators, so one Crusader Squad would have a second Predator) with the Typhoons in reserve. In response I drop two Crusader Squads (probably the last ones that I get) to claim the open Objective and prevent the chance of it being contested, and then I split most of the rest of my force into two groups and aim them at two objectives. With careful placement I can reduce the impact that the other units have on my forces and easily overrun those 2 objectives and win 3-2 (I could even go for 3 of their Objectives to reduce the chance for the enemy Typhoons to contest mine). The Typhoons could cause some problems but I think that the objectives would be too choked up with units and husks for the Typhoons to have a major impact as long as I make sure to correctly place my Crusader Squads.

    I'm already having no trouble killing units and option #2 gives me an easy chance to pit large numbers of my units against few enemy ones, furthering my chances though at the cost of granting my opponent at least one objective.


    Also, Marshal Learoth, unless you think that the mistakes I made with the Gunline are of no consequence then please mention them. I can tell that I'm beginning to fall into a sense of overconfidence in my list. My games against my Tyranid lists may help to correct that, or it may enforce that feeling.

    Another reason that I'm going to be playing games without my Drop Pod list is to improve my ability with those other kinds of lists, because I feel like I'm not as good with them and because I want to know how to use my Drop Pod list against lists that are played well, otherwise I would be setting myself up for failure.

  7. Split up the gunline into 3-4 bits. Change who goes first in the same game. Do not reserve the Speeders, simply have them move flat out on the turn before you drop so they gain the cover save. AV10 can be hard to crack when your melta only has a 1/3 chance of hitting in the first place. At least with one melta.

    Move the battle groups forward making sure that they have mutually supporting fire lanes. The idea is to let you choose the initial engagement, then be able to shoot the snot out of you before you can charge. If you are foolish enough to land near the Terminators, then they will charge you, multicharging if possible.

    My purpose as the gunline is to split up your forces in the drop, which makes you much slower on foot, then shoot you up piece by piece. I want to win the battle by long range fire and movement, planning to finish it with an objective grab at the end of the game. I am not going to let you corral me. Face it, the gunline sux0rz in CC, so why try to stay close for countercharging? Splitting up works well for it.

    Now, if you had AACNMTO, it would be different. Full Grey Hunter squads don't like charging (or being charged) by MSU squads with BP/CCW even though we are all I4. Rerolled misses just makes them too nasty. Granted, the Grey Hunters win the fight, but usually at a cost they didn't care for.

  8. I would love to have Preferred Enemy, but I'm not willing to drop anything because all I would really do with it would be to improve my Dreadnoughts in Close Combat while I would lose one of my best defenses against one of my worst weaknesses (Warp Quake, unless it's been poorly explained to me).

    Then again I would also like to be able to take Heavy Support Dreadnoughts instead of my Command Squads (the double Melta is nice, but the Dreadnoughts are nicer). I want stuff I can't have.

  9. Just incase you don't have the codex:

    Warp Quake:
    "This power can be used at the start of your Movement Phase and last until the start of your next Movement Phase. If the Psychic test is successful, all enemy teleport homers and other items of wargear that prevent Deep Strike scatter cease to function whilst within 12" of the squad while this power is in effect. Furthermore, any enemy unit deploying by Deep Strike within 12" of the squad (after scattering) will automatically suffer a Deep Strike mishap."

  10. Okay, that's not as bad as I thought. It will hurt but my Dreadnoughts should still be able to function with their large base sizes and Multi-Meltas (and my Plasma Guns should still be in range most of the time).

    I'm not exactly sure what I thought it was, maybe placing a beacon or having a range larger than 12" or something.