So I had the thought just now about a list. Now, for Anti-tank you need reliable weapons; you need to hit and penetrate and ideally be AP1 for that +1 on the damage roll. The key there is that for killing vehicles you need reliable shots, as opposed to number of shots which is for suppression fire. So I thought, ‘why not make a list that uses only TL Lascannons for killing tanks, and Heavy Bolters/Assault Cannons for suppressing them if needed?’ That is what I am going to try to do here.
Now, I won’t be focusing on getting Heavy Bolters/Assault Cannons but instead I will be taking them for extra Firepower if I can’t get enough TL-Lascannons for that. Of course, Bolters will be allowed as will Plasma Guns.
Okay, first we need to make a list of the most efficient units for taking TL-Lascannons. Those units are: Dreadnoughts at 125, Razorbacks at 90, Predator Annihilators at 120, and Land Raiders at 125 (they have two).
The problem with this is that each unit needs certain things for it, which changes the units. So everything needs Smoke Launchers; Razorbacks come with 5-man squads with Heavy Bolters and Plasma Guns (184); Dreadnoughts need Extra Armor (133); Predators don’t actually need Smoke Launchers, but we’ll have them just in case (123); and Land Raiders need Extra Armor (129).
So first we need Predators, we’ll take three. Next we’ll get three Dreadnoughts with Heavy Flamers (since we have no slots for Land Raiders), three of those as well. Take the Emperor’s Champion with Abhor the Witch and take as many Razorbacks as we can and then we’ll see where we’re at.
Emperor’s Champion: Vow (Abhor), -110
3x Dreadnought: TL-Lascannon, DCCW, Heavy Flamer, Extra Armor, Smoke, -429
5x Crusader Squad (5): Bolters, Heavy Bolter, Plasma Gun; Razorback: TL-Lascannon, Smoke; -920
3x Predator: TL-Lascannon, Smoke; -369
And we are 12 points short of a sixth Razorback. While I would like to go for the full entourage of Troops, instead we can spend those points making what we already have better. Heavy Bolter Sponsons and PotMS on all of our Predators cost 120, 52 left. 4 Neophytes with Shotguns fills our transports and cuts us off 12 points short of our maximum, and we just happen to have 11 vehicles primed for Searchlights, so we’ll take those.
Our list now looks like this:
Emperor’s Champion: Vow (Abhor), -110
Dreadnought: TL-Lascannon, DCCW, Heavy Flamer, Extra Armor, Smoke, Searchlight; -144
Dreadnought: TL-Lascannon, DCCW, Heavy Flamer, Extra Armor, Smoke, Searchlight; -144
Dreadnought: TL-Lascannon, DCCW, Heavy Flamer, Extra Armor, Smoke, Searchlight; -144
Crusader Squad (5): Bolters, Heavy Bolter, Plasma Gun; Razorback: TL-Lascannon, Smoke, Searchlight; -185
Crusader Squad (5/1): Bolters, Heavy Bolter, Plasma Gun; Razorback: TL-Lascannon, Smoke, Searchlight; -195
Crusader Squad (5/1): Bolters, Heavy Bolter, Plasma Gun; Razorback: TL-Lascannon, Smoke, Searchlight; -195
Crusader Squad (5/1): Bolters, Heavy Bolter, Plasma Gun; Razorback: TL-Lascannon, Smoke, Searchlight; -195
Crusader Squad (5/1): Bolters, Heavy Bolter, Plasma Gun; Razorback: TL-Lascannon, Smoke, Searchlight; -195
Predator: TL-Lascannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsons, PotMS, Smoke, Searchlight; -164
Predator: TL-Lascannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsons, PotMS, Smoke, Searchlight; -164
Predator: TL-Lascannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsons, PotMS, Smoke, Searchlight; -164
Total: 1,999
We’ve got 11 TL-Lascannons, 11 Heavy Bolters, 3 Heavy Flamers, 5 Plasma Guns, 25 Bolters, 4 Shotguns, and a Bolt Pistol. Our numbers are (drum roll):
DMS: 25.99
DMCC: 10.8
DRPG: 43.66
DLRPG: 8.14
So we need some changes, more Anti-Tank in general, even if it is at the cost of a little Anti-Infantry. So drop the Neophytes and Smoke Launchers on the Predators to upgrade the Plasma Guns to Meltaguns and make one Dreadnought Venerable and Tank Hunting New numbers are:
DMS: 22.6
DMCC: 10.12
DRPG: 49.44
DLRPG: 18.68
So we could still use some light anti-tank, but with all the Heavy Bolters we should be okay, though the Meltaguns don’t sit well with me due to their short range. Technically, I could get by with forgoing them in favor of a Missile Launcher on the Venerable Dreadnought and just have difficulty with Heavy Armor, but that still wouldn’t fix the problem completely and I’d have more trouble with the light anti-tank.
So there we go! Another addition of the List Building Series, not a great list but workable with mobility and armor saturation. Just for any wanted reference, here is the final list:
Emperor’s Champion: Vow (Abhor), -110
Dreadnought: TL-Lascannon, DCCW, Heavy Flamer, Venerable, Tank Hunting, Extra Armor, Smoke, Searchlight; -174
Dreadnought: TL-Lascannon, DCCW, Heavy Flamer, Extra Armor, Smoke, Searchlight; -144
Dreadnought: TL-Lascannon, DCCW, Heavy Flamer, Extra Armor, Smoke, Searchlight; -144
Crusader Squad (5): Bolters, Heavy Bolter, Meltagun; Razorback: TL-Lascannon, Smoke, Searchlight; -189
Crusader Squad (5): Bolters, Heavy Bolter, Meltagun; Razorback: TL-Lascannon, Smoke, Searchlight; -189
Crusader Squad (5): Bolters, Heavy Bolter, Meltagun; Razorback: TL-Lascannon, Smoke, Searchlight; -189
Crusader Squad (5): Bolters, Heavy Bolter, Meltagun; Razorback: TL-Lascannon, Smoke, Searchlight; -189
Crusader Squad (5): Bolters, Heavy Bolter, Meltagun; Razorback: TL-Lascannon, Smoke, Searchlight; -189
Predator: TL-Lascannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsons, PotMS, Smoke, Searchlight; -164
Predator: TL-Lascannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsons, PotMS, Smoke, Searchlight; -164
Predator: TL-Lascannon, Heavy Bolter Sponsons, PotMS, Smoke, Searchlight; -164
Total:-2,000
The general core of the list, I believe has some possibilities. While the numbers are a good indicator function to have, they don't tell the whole story.
ReplyDeleteA couple things I would personally change in the list are:
1) If you're really concerned with killing Rhinos, then changing the Heavy Flamers to Missile Launchers on the Dreadnoughts is the best way to improve that score. But you do lose some anti-infantry and CC-ability as a result. I don't believe the AI matters much because you're packing huge numbers of Heavy Bolters, but the loss of the DCCW's definitely hurts its combat potential.
2) Leave the Plasmaguns on the Crusader squads. They'll be able to fire at vehicles at longer distances, as well as being effective against infantry. This unit wants to stay still to fire at full capacity. The Meltagun makes the unit want to move, which makes the Heavy Bolter useless. Plus, if you're inside the Razorback, you don't have any firepoints anyway to shoot out of.
Other than that, I think it deserves playtesting. :)
I thought of changing the Heavy Flamers to Missile Launchers but that would reduce the original Goal of the list by having non-TL anti-armor shots. It also reduces the Dreadnoughts' Duality and they are the closest thing I have to Counter-Assault, so I'm hesitant to do that. Of course, the Missile Launcher's range makes it very tempting to have instead of the Heavy Flamer, so that would probably be a better choice (but not in line with the list's goal so not added above).
ReplyDeleteI would really like to be able to have Plasma Guns instead of Meltaguns, but I just can't afford it. I just don't have enough Lascannons to forgo them.
Both of those changes would improve the list but it would still struggle with Heavy Armor. Of course, that could be taken care of by using the points gained from Meltaguns->Plasma Guns to upgrade 2-3 of the Heavy Bolter Crusader Squads to Multi-Melta Crusader Squads. It would be an improvement but, again, would detract from the goal of the list. In fact, I think the next post will refer to that very problem of List Goal/Idea and Optimization; I should probably include something more though, we'll see.
Ah, okay. For some reason I neglected to see that line about only wanting to use TL-Lascannons. In that case, it makes it pretty difficult, as the most you're going to fit in is what you have. There simply isn't anywhere you can take the points, but I don't think its really necessary. The list is pretty balanced I think.
ReplyDeleteOn all of the tables at Nova Open that I had a chance to look at, I saw no more than 7-8 Land Raiders total. There were some Monoliths, but they aren't what you're looking at shooting. The other stuff you can get side shots on if necessary. So I don't think you really need to worry much about the AV14. Concentrate on the AV12 or less imo.
When I wrote the reply to the Meltaguns I realized that, unless mobile, I would never use them to greater effect than the Plasma Guns (unless I prepared a couple of squads for the specific role of zooming forward in their transports, jumping out, and shooting at a Land Raider when it started to get close), and so I deleted most of the point I was making. Somehow I forgot to remove the reply completely.
ReplyDeleteOne thing that I noticed about all of the units was that they have a weapon (sometimes two) that is good against Infantry (almost exclusively Heavy Bolters) without being effective against vehicles and a weapon that is good against Vehicles (Exclusively TL-Lascannons) that isn't the most effective against Infantry, and in most instances those two kinds of weapons are able to function separately (PotMS to choose different targets for the Predators, Razorbacks separate from Crusader Squads) and that should be a really nice ability to keep the guns firing at ideal targets.
Aye, it is something that our codex doesn't really do the best at sometimes -- Duality. You can keep focused on what your squad is best at, but you don't lose the duality of the squad because the transport is fulfilling the need. Or vise versa.
ReplyDeleteHowever, that sometimes can backfire, as a lot of times AI weapons are not effective against vehicles, so if your opponent is highly meched up, you'll have difficulties if all your AT is knocked out. At least the AT can fire at infantry if needed. Unfortunately, that isn't really something you can change. You just have to pay attention to it. :D
Have you gotten a chance to playtest the list yet?
Playtest it? No where near. I don't have the models for anything close to this, and I'm too nervous to try and find someone on Vassal just yet. For now, the only playtesting I will be doing is against another Black Templar force or a poorly made Tyranid list.
ReplyDeleteOnce I get a better grip on the Tyranids I might start playtesting it, but frankly it isn't exactly at the top of my list of things to playtest. First I need to beat your Assault Terminator List with my Drop Pod list (not easy when Vassal refuses to roll scenarios other than Kill Points), and this list was primarily made to see if I could. However, I will make a note about it and eventually get at least a couple of games in, but I have no idea when that will be.