Apologies for the 2-week wait on this, there was Christmas with my sister coming home, MW3 to keep me away, and it just seemed like every time I sat down to write I didn’t feel like it. Anyway, let’s get this over with.
Black Tide has never really been thoroughly tested as far as I know. Sure, there are people who have used it (and still do) with varying success and enjoyment. Some say that it’s fluffy, some say that it’s awesome, but I’m going to take some time to do two things. First, I’m going to give my opinions on it. Second, I’m going to try and build the best Black Tide list I can.
My thoughts about Black Tide:
This type of list is not fluffy. No, you can’t argue the point, it just isn’t. I’ve thoroughly checked the fluff (an extra bonus to those posts) and there isn’t anything for you to justify it from the Codex. It only exists because 20-man Crusader Squads are possible, because we have 4-5 thousand battle-brothers, people would get excited by the image of a hundred angry marines charging down the field, and a few pictures (such as the one of the front of the codex). Simply being able to field 20-man Crusader Squads does not mean you should design your army around them, and while we do have a massive number of battle brothers, they are over a vast area so they aren’t concentrated enough for this kind of army. Just because you think that the picture of a horde of Black Templars is awesome does not mean that it is fluffy, it means that the people making the codex thought it would look cool. In fact, the fluff mentions absolutely nothing about large numbers of Initiates on foot; Armored Columns, Drop Pod Assaults, but no foot-based. You can run them, you can have a Crusade based on them; they can be fluffy for you. That doesn’t make them a fluffy army in general.
Now it isn’t competitive for one reason and one reason alone: 20-man Crusader Squads. They are slow, they are only moderately capable in close combat, they die to shooting, they die to fearless wounds, they are super expensive, and they can’t kill tanks. They are everything you do not want your units to be! 20 guys? They still die; your opponent just doesn’t have to worry about over-kill and you can’t hide them as easily. 60 attacks in Close Combat? Wrong, think 30 and most aren’t Power Weapons because you’ll be killed before you get there. Righteous Zeal? That’s not mobility; that just makes losses slightly less harmful (or more harmful if you fail a morale test and your opponent can escort your unit). A Meltagun? Sweet, I can get that, but faster, safer, cheaper, and more reliably in a 5-man Rhino Squad. That’s not Anti-Tank; it is a necessary purchase to at least give the unit a chance at doing something good. And you are not going to argue the price, are you?
Now, they don’t have to be 20 guys. 14 or so will essentially do the same thing, but with all of the flaws reduced (except the dying parts, but that doesn’t outweigh the other problems that are lessened). Guess what? It still doesn’t work, but you have a better shot at it. You could go down to 5 guys, but then you lose the whole ‘horde’ aspect and they suffer from not having any staying power (compared to the larger squads). There is a ‘best’ balance in this, but it isn’t really an ‘optimal’ balance, so you’re still in the mud without a ride.
Lack of extra points on good choices and lack of any redeeming value means that the only way Black Tide lists will be good is if it is on the backs of the supporting units, which are in every other Black Templars list (virtually), and those have good Troops to make those support units really shine.
So how do we make a Black Tide list?
Well, first we need to cover our weaknesses. We need Independent Characters in the Squads to give them some extra punch in Close Combat, as well as give them either Ld10 or Fearless. We need as much anti-tank as we can get, of course, and we need some long-range fire-support.
Now, I did some research and found a thread on B&C which was started to talk about Black Tide lists and provide a source for everyone to get some tips on making Black Tides. I did find some useful information on there, though it ended up dying without any sort of final consensus on good lists (mostly just some discussion on how big the squads should be).
You either need to go all vehicles, or none. You can’t just take a couple of Dreadnoughts and a wing of Typhoons and go for it, because they will get targeted and killed, leaving you with no long-range Anti-Tank (which is what the vehicles are for). So what are some options? Attack Bikes (fast Multi-Meltas) and Terminators; both are Infantry-based and so, while good targets for things like Missile Launchers and Lascannons, aren’t as vulnerable to them as 6 vehicles might be. The Crusader Squads need to be armed with a Meltagun and a Powerfist, with an accompaniment of extra bodies to keep those two guys alive. Oh, and you also should have at least two Las/Plas Squads to sit on home Objectives and give some extra fire-support.
I’ve thought of two ways to go, and I’m not entirely sure which one to take. A true Black Tide with large Crusader Squads (more than 12-guys) and an MSU approach which would be more like a Close Combat foot army.
(Here would be a good time to point out that, while you could have supporting vehicles, you would really need to go with three Dreadnoughts, three Typhoons, and three Predators to get the saturation and redundancy needed without those transports to help out. But the problem here is that you are basically running a standard Gunline but with horde-ish Crusader Squads, which don’t synergize with the rest of the list. It becomes forced and I don’t think it would function properly, so I’m going to stay away from it unless I need to).
The true Black Tide I came up with is this:
Reclusiarch: 3 Cenobites, Bolt Pistol, Meltabombs; -131
Reclusiarch: 3 Cenobites, Bolt Pistol, Meltabombs; -131
Emperor’s Champion: Vow (Accept); -140
Terminator Squad (5): 2 CMLs, Tank Hunters; -265
Terminator Squad (5): 2 CMLs, Tank Hunters; -265
Crusader Squad (8/7): BP/CS, Powerfist, Meltagun, Frags; -238
Crusader Squad (8/7): BP/CS, Powerfist, Meltagun, Frags; -238
Crusader Squad (5): Bolters, Lascannon, Plasma Gun; -101
Crusader Squad (5): Bolters, Lascannon, Plasma Gun; -101
Attack Bike Squadron (2): 2 Multi-Meltas; -130
Attack Bike Squadron (2): 2 Multi-Meltas; -130
Attack Bike Squadron (2): 2 Multi-Meltas; -130
Total:-2,000
Two 15-man squads (with attached Chaplains), two Terminator Squads, two Las/Plas squads (I needed something to hold objectives), and an array of MM Attack Bikes. Why the Attack Bikes? Because they provide fast Melta and can be used to screen the Crusader Squads (and the Terminators). The Terminators provide the fire-support as well as real danger to various threats that the Crusader Squads can’t handle in Close Combat (Monstrous Creatures and Walkers are prime examples).
And it actually isn’t too light on Anti-Tank nor Close Combat ability, what it lacks is an effective way to get to any Objectives ‘way over there’ or if the opponent drags them into Close Combat for a couple of turns. So it might be workable, but I have my doubts.
(Now, while writing this I did play a game with the above list against one of my Tyranid lists and confirmed that those massive squads aren’t good enough to hold a flank by themselves. They got shot and then assaulted and were just totally wiped out while the Terminators didn’t fair much better, but against a heavier opposition. The result was a massacre against the Black Tide and I really shouldn’t be expecting much more with those large Crusader Squads.)
Next up we have this list:
Emperor’s Champion: Vow (Accept); -140
Marshal: Powerfist, Storm Shield; -120
Marshal: Powerfist, Storm Shield; -120
Sword Brethren (6): BP/CS, Powerfist w/ Terminator Honors, Meltagun, Frags, Infiltrate; -155
Sword Brethren (6): BP/CS, Powerfist w/ Terminator Honors, Meltagun, Frags, Infiltrate; -155
Sword Brethren (5): BP/CS, Powerfist w/ Terminator Honors, Meltagun, Frags, Infiltrate; -135
Crusader Squad (5/3): BP/CS, Powerfist, Meltagun, Frags; -143
Crusader Squad (5/2): BP/CS, Powerfist, Meltagun, Frags; -132
Crusader Squad (5/2): BP/CS, Powerfist, Meltagun, Frags; -132
Crusader Squad (5/2): BP/CS, Powerfist, Meltagun, Frags; -132
Crusader Squad (5): Bolters, Lascannon, Plasma Gun; -101
Crusader Squad (5): Bolters, Lascannon, Plasma Gun; -101
Assault Squad (5): 2 Plasma Pistols, Powerfist, Meltabombs; -145
Assault Squad (5): 2 Plasma Pistols, Powerfist, Meltabombs; -145
Assault Squad (5): 2 Plasma Pistols, Powerfist, Meltabombs; -145
Total:-2,000
The Sword Brethren (with the Marshals) Infiltrate forward and are soon supported by the Assault Squads; together they hold off the enemy until the Crusader Squads get there. Ideally all of the Powerfists and Melta will destroy tanks while the number of squads makes up for the low-model count in each and the Assault Squads perform as pseudo fire-support (with the Sword Brethren closing the distance quickly as well). Two Marshals, while expensive, are needed to retain that Ld10 after one dies. And yes, they have Powerfists. They reason is that I want them to be able to hurt tanks and aside from Meltabombs (which wouldn’t have been cheaper when combined with the Lightning Claw) there wasn’t another option.
Still, it lacks actual fire-support and tries to make up for that with lots of Powerfists (but without Terminators). The end result is that it has worse stats than the first Black Tide list, but I’m not entirely sure that this overshadows the increased flexibility it provides.
How about we try and mix these two with their best features? Pure MSU doesn’t look good, and large squads don’t look good.
Okay, the best units in the first list are the Terminators. They provide the best long-range firepower available as well as actual Close Combat threat (albeit in the form of Counter-Assault). We’ll take three. Now we’ll take the Troops from the second list for the flexibility. We’ve got lots of units now, so we’ll grab the Marshals from the second list as well. And of course we have the Emperor’s Champion with Accept Any Challenge.
That puts us a little under 100 points left. Not enough for another unit, and we could always benefit from being better against vehicles. Well, get a couple of Chainfists in each Terminator unit so they’re even scarier, and get Terminator Honors for the Marshals to give them an extra attack with their Powerfists. Still have 24 points so grab a couple of Neophytes and we’ll just have two extra points.
Our newest list looks like this:
Emperor’s Champion: Vow (Accept); -140
Marshal: Powerfist, Storm Shield, Terminator Honors; -135
Marshal: Powerfist, Storm Shield, Terminator Honors; -135
Terminator Squad (5): 2 CMLs, Tank Hunters, 2 Chainfists; -275
Terminator Squad (5): 2 CMLs, Tank Hunters, 2 Chainfists; -275
Terminator Squad (5): 2 CMLs, Tank Hunters, 2 Chainfists; -275
Crusader Squad (5/3): BP/CS, Powerfist, Meltagun, Frags; -143
Crusader Squad (5/3): BP/CS, Powerfist, Meltagun, Frags; -143
Crusader Squad (5/3): BP/CS, Powerfist, Meltagun, Frags; -143
Crusader Squad (5/2): BP/CS, Powerfist, Meltagun, Frags; -132
Crusader Squad (5): Bolters, Lascannon, Plasma Gun; -101
Crusader Squad (5): Bolters, Lascannon, Plasma Gun; -101
Total:-1,998
Something that I’ve recently realized is that the squads pushing forward don’t actually have to be troops, so let’s see if there is anything else which is close, but better. Heavy Support and Fast Attack have nothing, really, and Elite is full. But we’re already taking Marshals, so let’s look at a Command Squad.
5 guys with Counter-Attack, Frags and dual Meltaguns come at 123 points. There are 2 Meltaguns and they have Counter-Attack (but no Neophytes), so we can push for another 25 points (assuming we drop one Neophyte from a Crusader Squad). We still need a Powerfist though and the only way to do that is to give the Sergeant Terminator Honors to access the Armory.
Bad news here. Terminator Honors plus Powerfist equals 30 points. If we did that then *makes a few calculations in the background* we would total at 2,008 points. We could drop the Neophytes and grab another Initiate, and that sounds good. Of course, we can (and will) drop some Chainfists and switch that Initiate back so that we can buff our numbers with Neophytes. So here is what just might be my Black Tide list:
Emperor’s Champion: Vow (Accept); -140
Marshal: Powerfist, Storm Shield, Terminator Honors; Command Squad (5): BP/CS, 2 Meltaguns, Counter-Attack; -293
Terminator Squad (5): 2 CMLs, Tank Hunters; -265
Terminator Squad (5): 2 CMLs, Tank Hunters; -265
Terminator Squad (5): 2 CMLs, Tank Hunters; -265
Crusader Squad (6/1): BP/CS, Powerfist, Meltagun, Frags; -141
Crusader Squad (5/2): BP/CS, Powerfist, Meltagun, Frags; -135
Crusader Squad (5): Bolters, Lascannon, Plasma Gun; -101
Crusader Squad (5): Bolters, Lascannon, Plasma Gun; -101
Total:-1,999
The numbers say that it has great Close Combat ability (though about half of it is from the Terminators) and it can handle mech (though about half of it is from the Terminators), so I’ll have to get some games in with it to see if that actually holds up (or if it needs higher numbers than normal, which it probably will).
Until I get some games in, I’ll have to leave it at that. If anyone has any questions, thoughts, comments, chickens, objections, or suggestions, please leave a comment and let me know (don’t you dare say “I have a thought” and nothing else, because I will find where you live and I will cut you!). I’m not sure how well this list will perform, but I think that for Black Tide this is about as good as you’re going to get.
The simple fact of the matter is, while the last list is certainly more flexible than the rest, it isn't in the least bit scary to a balanced mechanized list.
ReplyDeleteThe number of troops isn't really an issue for me, as it really depends on the list. My issue is their durability. Smaller squads wouldn't be a problem if they had a transport to hide in or had the mobility to get away from threats. This list has neither. The two shooty squads accept that, as they are cheap and deadly enough to warrant the risk.
However, the CC-oriented ones do what? They are armed with weapons that require them to be in close range to be used effectively. A meltagun isn't going to do you any good in your deployment zone, unless facing the rare Drop Pod. And the Power Fist can't be used unless in CC. They don't have the numbers to make it across the board largely intact. So when they reach where ever they were trying to go, they fall flat in CC due to the lack of attacks being put out. And that's even assuming the Powerfist dude survives to strike. Due to you likely losing dudes on the way there, its no guarantee. Black Tide relies on numbers to ensure that a reasonable size squad makes it to combat. Even then, you yourself noted that you need a CC-oriented IC to jump in to make the squad decent. We're going to assume that 6/1 squad is getting the EC.
But wait, you say. :D I'm actually going to be using my Command Squads to charge forward, not the Crusader squads. Well, then you're not using either of your weapons. Giving you an inefficient squad. Much like my Las/Plas Crusader squads in my Gunline list, they weren't firing most of my games, so they were an inefficiency. Maybe they are meant to guard the home objectives, perhaps not. I don't think they are based on the Frags.
So given what we know, if we are the opponent and we have four units running our way, which one do we shoot? The smaller, albeit slightly more dangerous Marshal-led Command squads? Or the mid-sized, but not scary Crusader squads? Personally, I'd shoot the Crusader squads because the Command squads aren't really all that dangerous in close combat (besides the Marshal) and I'd take my chances with them. Because they are walking, I don't want to accidently make the dual-melta get to me quicker. Because guys are going to die in the Crusader squads, they become inefficient in CC by the time they reach their target.
Moral of the story: There are too many armies now that pack serious torrent-of-fire weaponry. Dark Eldar with their Splinter weaponry, Necrons with their Telsa/Gauss weaponry, and even Grey Knights with their Psycannon spam. Even IG are exceedingly dangerous with their Multi-lasers and lasguns (at 18"). You don't have anything that increases your army's durability to compensate for the lower body count. And you're still pretty slow on the board. :(
I agree on all general points, and you do make a good case for taking less-efficient but more durable larger squads (which could be done by dropping the 5/2 squad and adding those bodies to the other squads).
ReplyDeleteBut the Meltaguns are there mostly so that should the squad be up against a transport, it can still do something (and possibly then assault whatever was inside the transport), rather than relying on 2 Powerfist attacks at 6+ to hit.
Also I should mention that the purpose of having the Command Squads is because they are more efficient than the Crusader Squads in this list. They have another Meltagun and Terminator Honors on the Powerfist guy, along with the benefit of Counter-Attack (which is tempting to drop in favor of an Apothecary) while they only give up a couple of bodies.
But yeah, it's nothing spectacular and after I get a game in with it I just might drop another of the close combat Crusader Squads or both in favor of extra bodies. However, until then I'm going to go under the assumption that in this case the extra squads make up for the decreased durability. This wasn't to make an awesome list, but more to begin specifically addressing the flaws in Black Tide lists (and I might as well have one made, I've got nearly every other kind).
Your last one is close to my Deep Strike list, except for the Marshals and Command Squads eating up a lot of points that I turn into more firepower.
ReplyDeleteI noticed this in your post:
"You either need to go all vehicles, or none. You can’t just take a couple of Dreadnoughts and a wing of Typhoons and go for it, because they will get targeted and killed, leaving you with no long-range Anti-Tank (which is what the vehicles are for). So what are some options? Attack Bikes (fast Multi-Meltas) and Terminators; both are Infantry-based and so, while good targets for things like Missile Launchers and Lascannons, aren’t as vulnerable to them as 6 vehicles might be. The Crusader Squads need to be armed with a Meltagun and a Powerfist, with an accompaniment of extra bodies to keep those two guys alive. Oh, and you also should have at least two Las/Plas Squads to sit on home Objectives and give some extra fire-support."
Heh, thanks for the support. That is why I take the Terminators (even Assault Terms) over Dreadnoughts. They get targeted more and with the durability of Terminators vs Dreadnoughts it takes more time to kill Terms, which takes pressure off my Typhoon Speeders. Well, the alternate is that my opponent hunts down my LS-Typhoons, but each time that happens, I end up in his face with three angry Terminator squads, two of them blowing pairs of Cyclones and ten bolter rounds in his face before stepping up to shred & crush.
I wouldn't say that it is a lot like yours, except in a few respects. It does use a few extra bodies in the Crusader Squads, a good number of Terminators, and there is a close combat focus to it; but it's not Drop Pod based, no Typhoons, and fewer Crusader Squads. Although I do want to mention that the Command Squads aren't meant for eating up a bunch of points. I already had the Marshals and the Command Squads were just Crusader Squads, slightly better.
ReplyDeleteI should probably remind you that when you have transports (yes, even Drop Pods) the problem I mentioned with adding vehicles is greatly lessened. It's 6 vehicles on their own that become vulnerable, and so I didn't want to try them without adding Predators as well (which becomes expensive, but my be a valid alternate should I be unhappy with this list).
Something to add that I've realized (Marshal Learoth may have been trying to point this out, but I didn't specifically understand it), is that this list is incredibly reliant on the Terminators. They are the most dangerous melee threats and they are the most dangerous ranged threats. So what happens when I go up against a list that can actually deal with them? I've been having trouble recently in most cases (which could result in a drastic change to my list building, updates on that will come in a while) but I have been able to see them die very quickly or even get dragged down in close combat for a few turns, reducing their effect. So if this list faces something like that, it's pretty much doomed as is loses so much.
ReplyDeleteGreat Blog!
ReplyDeleteIm following you!
You can follow me too, i Got a Painting blog!
http://malditoduendeminiatures.blogspot.com/
Been a little quiet Devjon, hope all is well.
ReplyDeleteYeah, I just haven't had any energy to really do much. A new video game got me out of the routine of getting on, then renewed efforts in PT and school starting up again just sucked all of my energy away and I have spent me free time doing mostly mindless things compared to this. I've been trying to get back into the habit and I've gone on Implausible Nature a couple of times and YTTH once, but I'm having some trouble.
ReplyDeleteI really appreciate the comment though as hopefully it will give me the motivation to finish the post that I started like two months ago. If I can, I'll try and get it up tonight. Otherwise, I might have to wait until spring break to have enough free time to get going.